And there you go

[yeloson]

delux_vivens linked a great interview with Chrystos:

You know, the world is not an all-white place. And anyone who doesn't want to acknowledge that has an investment in white supremacy.

It's good to be reminded how stunted our dialogue is.

White supremacy shifted to racism (because, you know, "anyone can be racist") shifted to aversive racism, shifted to prejudice, shifted to unconcious bias, shifted to cultural upbringing. It's like collateral damage being the new term for mass murder.

We are often presented with a false choice: either talk at this stunted level or don't talk about it at all. Another friend of mine brought up the issue of "good faith discussions". When you're talking about stuff like this, and someone steps in at this stunted level, how can you assume good faith? ("You cannot call this abuse. Please PROVE to me that the high velocity cranial treatment via digital application was undesired and undeserved, and then we can have a reasonable discussion.")

Are those people worth talking to? Can there be a "dialogue"?

And are these the discussions we want to have?

Comments

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

I feel like there's this nostalgic racism going on in the literary world at the moment. In nostalgic racism you have books like the Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood by Rebecca Wells. You have Fannie Flagg. You have a whole bunch of really popular writers who are essentially writing about all white worlds in which there is no recognition that they ARE that white world.

So I call that nostalgic racism or nostalgic white supremacy. It's a way of recreating a world which actually doesn't exist anymore. Most of the literature that is considered "important literature" in the United States is white supremacist literature. By that I mean there are almost no people of color in it and if there are, they're literally the maid mentioned in passing. John Cheever's like that. John Updike is like that. Norman Mailer is like that. All of those people that I call the dead white men have this nostalgic white supremacy going on in their work. And the publishing industry itself has a sort of quota system happening where there can be four Asian women writers, there can be four Black women writers and two Indian women writers. So I look upon the publishing industry as a white supremacist organization and a lot of people flinch when I say things like that because they think I'm over reacting or I'm not being nice.

Clearly, she's a sock puppet!

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

"Facts only count based on who says it. That's what makes it rational!"

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Can there be a "dialogue"?

I think that for some folks what they term (and demand) as 'dialogue' seems more like 'remediation' to knowledgeable poc and allies. There's such an uneven level of knowledge. However, what poc may call 'simple background knowledge' some folks insist is 'groupthink'.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

I keep envisioning someone showing up at a panel on modern medicine demanding to know which humors and phlegms should be bled out before casting out demons to end breast cancer and then throwing up their hands at how uninclusive and backwards they are to limit the speakers.

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

Not to make it "all about little white me", but your comment on remediation, and the original post, brought up something that happened last week. An old friend of mine who is white (like me) is very, very behind on issues of race. To the point that they're still on 'reverse racism'. And they wanted to "discuss" some of the things I'd said about race and white anti-racism lately, because they think I'm "selling myself out" in the name of being politically correct and not hurting people's feelings. I wouldn't have the discussion in my journal, I said it was a non-starter, but I'd discuss it elsewhere.

As soon as I'd said it, I felt like I'd made the wrong concession. I had this horrible moment when I thought, and bit back, "That's not a discussion. That's me sitting around listening to you be wrong, again and again, and you ignoring me when it's my turn to talk."

Because, sometimes it's not a dialogue. Period. Sometimes there isn't one to be had. And sometimes, it's you being forced by some fallacious social convention to listen to someone else be wrong. For their benefit. Again. And if they really were up for change, especially in this setting, they'd be off reading all the huge stacks of resources and making that change.

I realized then that that person didn't want to have a discussion with me. They, weirdly enough, see me as being more educated on race than them, and they wanted to get me in a place where I'd have to agree with them, at least a little, and then they could keep their image of themselves as not being racist. I felt used.

I don't want to have that discussion, I told them in the end. I'd help them learn the things I'd pointed out, but I wasn't going to discuss whether or not there was "reverse racism". End file.

That experience made me embarrassed about some of my "attention/knowledge" seeking in the past. At least then, I knew I had the wrong ideas and was ready to trade up. But I understood, so clearly right there with my friend, why I'd been rebuffed before. Because sometimes there isn't a dialogue to be had, and no one owed me the benefit of the doubt.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

I realized then that that person didn't want to have a discussion with me. They, weirdly enough, see me as being more educated on race than them, and they wanted to get me in a place where I'd have to agree with them, at least a little, and then they could keep their image of themselves as not being racist.

Welcome to our lives!

I felt used.

Part of the thing with people like me and yeloson is that we have set enough boundaries that we are generally able to not let it get that far; by not letting people have that kind of access we are guaranteed to be labelled meen and too angry.

[machineplay.livejournal.com]

Welcome to our lives!

That's what smacked me in the face. I regret buying into the liberal trap of "let's talk until we reach a common ground". I'd have been a better friend to some people in specific past moment if I'd been more open to believing POC when they said there was nothing to discuss sometimes. I wasn't, I wanted to be friends with everyone, and I was wrong.

set enough boundaries...guaranteed to be labelled meen and too angry

Yes, and I did this one to myself (see above, lack of backbone). The longer I'm exposed to all the 'racefail', the more I respect those boundaries like the ones you have, the more I learn that I can have those about things like being queer and being female and now, apparently, about this. So, round of applause for boundaries. If you don't preserve yourself, there's nothing you have left to have the work you need to do, nothing left for yourself and the people who matter, and that, especially on top of all the other crap in the world, is simply not right.

(Also, how embarrassing -- for me, at least! -- is it that some of this stuff sounds like basic parenting? *facepalm* Chapter One: Dealing With Your Toddler White Folks. Oh, lord.)

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Well, sometimes there is something to talk about, but a lot of times? Not really.

If you don't preserve yourself, there's nothing you have left to have the work you need to do, nothing left for yourself and the people who matter,

Pretty much.

some of this stuff sounds like basic parenting? *facepalm* Chapter One: Dealing With Your Toddler White Folks.

A lot of it is exactly like parenting, because whiteness and white supremacy enforce and uphold a system of interaction where white folks' infantilization takes priority over *everything*. When poc set boundaries: "no you cannot touch my hair. no, X is cultural appropriation and is not appreciated. No, you cannot participate in X safe space for POC" the toddler tantrum comes out of far too many people.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

they wanted to get me in a place where I'd have to agree with them, at least a little, and then they could keep their image of themselves as not being racist.

A few years back I had my own racefail when I started talking about how problematic race things were in small circle of roleplaying games- everything from imagery to the fact you had folks attending conventions in blackface.

I watched as several folks on my flist who previously shown rational thought proceed to NOT use it and take up a lot of space AND abuse my friends of color on my blog and try to silence them.

Guess how long -that- lasted?

When I realized rational thought was no longer at play, just pained flailing at "I thought you were a good little POC, not like the others", I started banning folks.

[rosefox]

to the fact you had folks attending conventions in blackface

Please oh please tell me they weren't white people claiming to be "black otherkin".

I watched as several folks on my flist who previously shown rational thought proceed to NOT use it

That sort of betrayal is the worst. My sympathies.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

They were cosplaying "Drow". I hope they don't imagine they're "really" drow. Cause that's even more problematic.

[rosefox]

And drow are certainly problematic enough!

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Well, you know, when your setting's only example of dark skinned characters are an evil matriarchy, hypersexualized in the imagery, and referred to even in modules as recent as 2004 as "dusky skinned", and apparently also spreading evil through miscegenation...

And then you have people really painting themselves up in blackface and walking around in public.

Ayup.

Thanks for posting this

[femmeflame.livejournal.com]

I've had the pleasure of spending time with her. Thanks for reminding me I need to renew working on getting her across the border again.

[lavendertook.livejournal.com]

Thank you for stating so clearly questions I'm also wrestling with.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

This post hits the heart. Thank you again.

[abydosangel.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this.

You have been a refuge of awesome.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

he gives excellent foot massages, too.

*winks*

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

When you put your foot to people's asses all day, it tends to get sore.

Just keeping the movement movin'

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

*DED*

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Your posts in all of this have been not only educational and informative, but a balm to my soul. Thank you for this.