Don't give me a hand up, I'm kicking down the ladder!

[yeloson]

So. One thing that's always interesting to deal with is white identified POC. I'm not going to buy into BS about sell-outs and race traitors and all that trash which also serves the purposes of the kyriarchy for dividing and cutting us.

What I will say is that I'm still pulling out the shards of broken glass that is self hate from internalized racism - self esteem, acceptable roles as an asian male, being biracial, etc., so someone who's even more cut up? Who believes that taking honorary white status by protecting/serving the privileged to get 2nd tier in the system? The one who goes for being an overseer? Or at least glad to not be on the bottom tier?

That person I have no time for. If you have a well of self hate and I look like you? I already know what I become in your eyes - an externalized target for your self hate. And I totally don't need that while I'm nursing my own wounds. The last thing that will help me is having someone who looks like me trying to cut a deal to receive being 2/3rds a human in exchange for supporting white supremacy.

See, 3/3rds of me belong to me. You never owned any of it and you have no right to it. It's a trade I never agreed to. And only because you think you're worth 0/3rds without the grace of white folks, you think you're trading up.

There's many steps to freedom, but there is no half stepping.

Comments

[abydosangel.livejournal.com]

That person I have no time for. If you have a well of self hate and I look like you? I already know what I become in your eyes - an externalized target for your self hate. And I totally don't need that while I'm nursing my own wounds. The last thing that will help me is having someone who looks like me trying to cut a deal to receive being 2/3rds a human in exchange for supporting white supremacy.

This may be the best thing I've read in a while on the matter.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

If you have a well of self hate and I look like you? I already know what I become in your eyes - an externalized target for your self hate.

This.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

I've been encountering a lot of folks recently, both in on and offline who make a big show of how much they "aren't like the rest of us" by either keeping a far distance or trying to cut people down, so there can be no illusion about where their loyalties lie.

Of course, the only illusion is their own- white supremacy is white supremacy is white supremacy. It's not "rational", "civilized", "polite", "progressive", "moderate" or whatever word you want to dig deep from anal explorations to smear upon it.

And they wonder why we don't come running.

[abydosangel.livejournal.com]

Mmhm.

Personally, white-identifying PoC creep me out on a level I find hard to explain. I just get all squicked and "Wow, you actually are going to EAT THAT?!?!" when I see it in action and I still have to make myself step away/not respond/walk.quickly.to.the.car...

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

For me, I see a spectrum of that kind of stuff- the folks who were raised isolated and groomed by their parents for a particular path, the folks who ran away from a bad situation and then project that experience on all of their people, and then the people who... just choose that they're going to self isolate and climb that ladder.

Of all, it's the last group that creeps me out the most, mostly because survival mechanisms I get, but straight up taking the white pill and jumping into the Matrix, not even to get steak? That's the one that leaves me creeped.

[jolantru.livejournal.com]

Exactly. *nods*

[buria-q.livejournal.com]

"folks who ran away from a bad situation and then project that experience on all of their people"

yes, very familiar with this.

[oneshysistah.livejournal.com]

If you have a well of self hate and I look like you? I already know what I become in your eyes - an externalized target for your self hate. And I totally don't need that...

Couldn't be said better. The result is always the same.

[locke61dv.livejournal.com]

> I'm not going to buy into BS about sell-outs and race traitors and all that trash which also serves the purposes of the kyriarchy for dividing and cutting us.

Thanks for this, too. I had to internet-stab an ex-friend of mine for not getting that.

I think I'm better than I was in, say, '04, in regards to having an identity with less of the tedious self-hate.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I felt I had to preface it because people seem to assume that's the default theory (sort of like the dating conversation a couple of years back when everyone assumed I would only date Chinese...).

The all-or-nothing logic was something I bought into when I was 12, and didn't realize how much survival choices people had to make along the way or the history of white folks who stood up for social justice getting killed to the phrase "race traitor" and yet we keep getting these stories in the movies where it's the black people who have a problem with interracial dating (minus, of course, the context of mixed black folks since get go due to slaverowners...).

[locke61dv.livejournal.com]

hey i remember wigging out incorrectly on that very conversation lol

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Well, it's interesting that narrative of the binary logic is all that gets to exist in our stories, and from there, our cultural narrative...

[locke61dv.livejournal.com]

Youth is all about binary choices; but then, growing the fuck up involves getting over a binary world.

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

Hmm. What about the people who truly, honestly identify as only American/? I'm not speaking of myself--I'm not sure exactly what I identify as, but it sure as hell ain't white or American--however, I do have multi-generation PoC friends who get tired of me talking about race in a non-joking manner. They are aware of racism, but they don't care; it's just another handicap, like being fat or having a disability, and they don't want to fight racism.

How are such people described? Still white-identified PoC?

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

What about the people who truly, honestly identify as only American?

I truly, honestly identify as American.

(I also wonder who these people are who identify as American falsely that you're insinuating must exist somewhere...)

A lot of people in these discussions identify as American (truly, honestly, etc.).

Or did you mean that somehow being American would magically wipe away all other identifiers- my gender, sexual preference, etc. would be written over by the trait "AMERICAN"?

That's rather like saying an orange can only be one of the following: A collection of molecules, a round object, a plant, a food item, or a fruit, but not all at the same time.

I identify the way I do because I'm one example of what an American looks like.

If you want to go into false distinctions of Americanism, both grandfathers and my father all served in active military service. My grandparents were small business owners. My parents both worked in government positions.

Is all of this wiped out by my acknowledging my origins? In that case, knowing that my white side goes to the original English settlers invalidates my white side as being truly American as well...

How are such people described? Still white-identified PoC?

Not wanting (or likely, not having the energy) to fight racism has nothing to do with it. For the oppressed, sometimes surviving is the best they can do.

Re-read carefully:

Who believes that taking honorary white status by protecting/serving the privileged to get 2nd tier in the system?

There's a far difference between making survival choices in lacking power in a system, and defending the system that's taking your power (http://community.livejournal.com/sex_and_race/296541.html?thread=2807389).

It's usually not hard to identify such people.

Just speak for equality and they'll be there to silence you.

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

I acknowledge a poor diction choice on my part. The people I am thinking of, one person in particular, is 3rd-gen Japanese/Chinese-American. Her ancestors are from California. She doesn't care that she is Asian, and their family life is uninfluenced by race. I doubt she cares much about being a woman, either; that is, she passively supports feminism and other civil rights, but doesn't see them as affecting her in a way that requires her to take action. So by "American," I meant "cultureless white American" (and I acknowledge how blind that word choice is, ironic because I would not make the same generalization about Canadians).

You are defining "white-identified PoC" as "taking honorary white status by protecting/serving the privileged to get 2nd tier in the system," correct? That seems like a problematic term to me, because "white-identified" has a surface interpretation of simply "does not identify with PoC culture" (so defaults to the dominant white one). That may be a problematic choice, but not a reprehensible one.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

"white-identified" has a surface interpretation of simply "does not identify with PoC culture"

You're using some interesting turns of phrases here.

I know people of color raised in places where their family are the only people of color within a 6 hour drive. They listen to white music, all of their nearby friends are white, and they eat what most people consider traditional American food.

By any and all usual measures of culture, they're "not identified with POC culture".

Yet they do not do those behaviors I pointed out in that link. (You did read the link, yes?)

White identified people defend whiteness. If the heirarchy is not enforced and reinforced, it is threatened to be dismantled. The reasons for white behavior are obvious, though for the person, the motives are subconscious - they're usually not aware they're enacting all those behaviors, which is why they come up again and again and we can make bingo cards.

For POC who do it? It's all about white approval and massive insecurity. They've been well trained by family, friends, and/or just society that white approval is everything. If you lose that, you ARE nothing.

They're the most scared by antiracist statements. The idea that you can be happy without white approval, or that white approval isn't special is like saying, "You can be ok without oxygen, here, let me show you..." It's fundamentally central to their lives.

The cost of it, though. Disassociate with family and people who look like you. Don't talk to people who look like you. White opinions matter more than people who look like you, or other people of color, or your own opinions. Even when the white person is wrong or grossly misinformed. Don't eat food like that. Don't dress like that. Don't speak that language. Laugh when they talk about those black people over there. Laugh when they talk about YOUR people. Laugh even though that joke just insulted your mother and your grandmother and made you really uncomfortable inside. Swallow that down. It's ok. Having a white friend is more important.

On a subconscious level, they recognize that in going for equality, they're going to have to see a lot of ugly stuff about their white friends, lovers, family members, coworkers, fellow students, etc, etc. that they've been turning their heads on, and they're not ready to accept that.

That some of these so called friends of years and years, will throw them away at the drop of a hat because they spoke up about being treated as a human, with respect.

It's really Stockholm Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome) on a society wide scale.

With all that in mind, should I be worried if some white identified person find the turn of phrasing problematic or "reprehensible"? That it would somehow turn them away from what I have to say? Why in the world should I worry about "proper tone" to someone who's in a mindstate of white supremacy?

They wouldn't have listened to what I had to say anyway, those people have bigger issues to deal with, and while I wish them the best in navigating it, I refuse to be the target of their internalized racism.

Reread the initial post.

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

The same kind of people you describe and identify as NOT "white-identified"?

I know people of color raised in places where their family are the only people of color within a 6 hour drive. They listen to white music, all of their nearby friends are white, and they eat what most people consider traditional American food.

By any and all usual measures of culture, they're "not identified with POC culture".

Yet they do not do those behaviors I pointed out in that link.

Those people may hear "white-identified" and think of themselves, and believe that their non-identification with their "original" culture equals support of white supremacy. Do you also not care about them?


I agree with the thrust of your initial post, except for your word choice.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

How can I care about people who can't make it to the second paragraph of a post?

Also rather interesting the amount of effort you're putting in here to correct a theoretical misunderstanding by a hypothetical group, rather than, you know, speaking up to people whom you've associated with who've actually said hurtful things to real people with real concerns.

Did you read that link yet?

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

The context of your particular post is irrelevant; you are defining a term, and others will use the term without defining it every time.

You have no idea what I do or do not say to real people, so please do not make such false assumptions. Perhaps I'm wasting my effort here, but it is not "rather than" other types of advocacy work.

And yes, I did read the link, a while ago. I'm not sure what beautiful epiphany you keep prodding me to find.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

You have no idea what I do or do not say to real people...

Sure I do. Repeatedly during the last few months, you've not only stayed silent about people saying hurtful things, but even defended them, despite many other people explaining why those terms were hurtful and loaded. Real people. Not sockpuppets, orcs, or Nithings.

I'd dig up the links, but honestly, I think you can reread your own comments over the last few months and find your own examples.

You wanted clarification about the term "white identified POC" and you got it, and in fact, it was there in my original post.

At this point, you're just concern trolling ("But what about...") because you're discomforted by this post and want to know if you're one of the "white identified POC" I'm talking about.

And you're looking either for me to confirm that so you can write me off as one of the "irrational" POC horde you've spoken about, or for me to deny it and give you a reassurance.

I'm not going to do either.

Either what I'm saying holds no merit (with it's not-quite reprehensible choice of words), and you don't need to worry for me, because I'll just be another wrong person on the internet, or it holds some merit and you decide for yourself what it means for you.

I'm also not going to worry about these hypothetical people who can't read or abuse the words I use when we're dealing right now with people using non-hypotheticals to hurt people right now.

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

What I say online is not indicative of what I do not say. It is no business of yours that I now lock most posts on race, and although I may regret the emotion, I stand by the content of any public comments I have made in the past months.

I am not looking for a confirmation or reassurance from you; I may be many unsavory things, but white-identified PoC is not one of them. Not by your definition, although I have been called race traitor etc. So be it.

I worry too much about wrong people on the Internets. It's a bad habit. And I also care very much about hypotheticals--that is not mutually exclusive to caring about non-hypotheticals.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Shrug. You come to my LJ, dance about the topic with loaded questions with loaded terms, and what?

You got your clarification, you don't need to defend yourself to an internet stranger, especially since you've stated numerous times that folks like me have "already made up our minds" about everything and everything.

I keep pointing you back to this whole discussion because each response you give indicates you haven't really parsed or processed what was said before going off on some tangential without actually addressing the points.

What is it you want here again?

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

I don't recall saying what you've quoted, but perhaps I did. I was not addressing the points because my original point was tangential to your post.

What is it you want here again?

To have a civil conversation (and you have been civil, thank you). For the lurkers' sake, because I once was one. As far as I know, it is not yet rude to disagree.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

So far, you haven't -even- disagreed with the main post- but rather, nitpicked terminology and concern trolled to protect the feelings of some hypothetical group. That is rude, regardless of how civil the words used.

Based on your defensiveness through out this, it's not even about the hypothetical group, or your friend. It's about how -you- feel about this post.

I don't want to have a civil discussion, I want a respectful one.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but that whole post? "Pulling glass out of my heart"? That's some serious internal processing I'm talking about there. Over 10 years of a long of crying, anger, loneliness, and soul searching. And having people come in to tell me I was wrong for being ok with myself along the way.

If your biggest concern is terminology without acknowledging that?

If you want to talk about how you feel about that? Fine. If you want to talk about my process through that? Fine. If you want to rip out the context and concern troll for the crying hypotheticals? Bullshit.

(frozen)

[keilexandra]

Honestly? I took "pulling glass out of my heart" etc. as metaphor. Beautiful, poignant metaphor--but fundamentally prose description, not representative of your emotional state. All PoC, to varying extents, are still extracting those shards of glass. I did not recognize your post as an emotional epiphany, although rereading it with the context you just gave me, I can see how that is true.

So, I'm sorry for your decade of crying, anger, loneliness, and soul searching. Truly, I am. I do not mean to dismiss your emotional catharsis.

Terminology, however, is a valid concern. Even if you don't agree with me on that point, I am not sorry for nitpicking semantics. I don't disagree with the main post--that is why I saw no need to address it.

Respect is important, but civility is paramount, for one cannot be respectful without also being civil. Civility, as I interpret it, is based on intent and consequence (one intends no harm and does no harm or apologizes for accidentally doing harm). Respect is based solely on one party's feelings; and while I try my best to respect everyone's feelings, sometimes misinterpretation interferes. If you feel I have been disrespectful in this conversation--I approached this post like I approach life, from the theoretical perspective first in order to try to remove personal bias (a lost cause, I know)--then I apologize, although you will have to elaborate on what exactly offended you.

(frozen)

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Um, wow, after saying you "understand" you make it about you AND toss in the tone argument?

You've got a lot of thinking to do.

This conversation is over.