IBARW: Disownership

[yeloson]

So. Factoid: I'm 3rd generation Toisanese, don't speak the language, grew up completely Americanized.

It wasn't until middle school that I began to really wrestle with what that meant in terms of identity. I realized that there was this group of communities, collectively called "Chinese" of which I wasn't a part, culturally. Effectively, my understanding of my own people was a) my granma's cooking and b) kung fu movies. Which didn't put me -that- much further than the usual asian fetish whiteboy.

In my seeking, I found myself skipping from one mainstream source to the next. Bullshit books about faux taoism, kung fu, history, etc. In the end, again, not different than your bullshit Quetin Taratino.

So why not go to the source? I remember as a kid, asking my dad why we didn't go to the asian supermarket, and he said, "What? Do I LOOK like I fucking belong there?" At the time, I thought it was just my dad being an asshole like usual. Later I thought it was shame about being Chinese. Now? I get that part of it is just how if you're outside enough, then you're just outside with no way in.

See, the irony is, for all the bullshit new agey crap white folks have about being Chinese? They still get an in to the culture if they ask. The expectations are different if you happen to be of Chinese descent. You're -expected- to know the language, you're -expected- to know the customs, you're -expected- to put up with a lot more shit that they don't give the white people. White people imagine they have to "pay dues", but they don't have to play dues like you do if you ARE chinese.

Simple things. "How do you pray to the dead?", "What's the money for? When do you burn it? How much?", "Who can give red envelopes? At what events? How much are you supposed to give?", "Is he pissed at me? What did I do wrong?"

Funny enough, it was that I was expected to know this from both white folks and chinese folks, so I made it a big thing to trying to find it out.

Now? Like my dad, I'm not sure I give a fuck. Is it growth of self esteem, letting go of fetishizing your own culture (any wonder I identify emotionally with Kemetic African Revisionists?), or just deciding that trading one culture of hierarchies for another isn't worth it? I don't know.

All I know is that as frustrating as it is when some random white person comes up and starts telling me about chinese culture, history, etc. and knowing that 99% of the time they're talking out of their ass and full of shit, it's more frustrating knowing that 1% who actually looked have it right, and they got it without going through a quarter of the shit I would have to go through for the same thing.

Comments

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

White people imagine they have to "pay dues", but they don't have to play dues like you do if you ARE chinese.

Holy shit, this is so true. And I obviously can't speak on it from an Asian perspective, but damn if I don't see blacks and latinos do this all the time - particularly when it comes to ATRs. They make their own people do everything short of selling their first born in order to get information, but give white folks honorary cred./acceptance in a heartbeat. WTF? :/

I've been in similar situations where I've asked questions about black history/culture and been shot down and ridiculed ... but let a white person ask the same thing? It's all "sit down, let me tell you ALLL about it". *smh*

It just shows how deep the rabbit hole goes ... how much some of us have internalized the idea that attention from white folks is more important than helping our own people. Damn.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

And is it any wonder they imagine after 6 months of study they're equivalent to 50 years and studying devotees/yogis/priests/priestesses/martial artists, etc.?

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

Amen.

So many of us give white folks everything from our cultures on a platter and then want to get pissed that they walk around thinking they know *more* about being a person of color than we do. *smh*

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

And don't feel badly about having to learn about your culture while being outside of the culture. For the majority of us it is that way. For different reasons: some of our families purposefully distanced themselves from their culture, some of us due to colonization and/or enslavement or war, were never given information ...

... but I'm learning that, whatever the reason, the cult of whiteness is/was behind it. And all of us PoC (well, those of us who want to heal/learn) struggle to put the pieces back together ... struggle to get questions answered and fill in the gaps. Unfortunately oppression has made it so most of us have to rely on research to learn about who we are ... because our links to our heritage have been broken by white supremacy.


*hugs*

[buria-q.livejournal.com]

"And don't feel badly about having to learn about your culture while being outside of the culture. For the majority of us it is that way. For different reasons: some of our families purposefully distanced themselves from their culture, some of us due to colonization and/or enslavement or war, were never given information ..."

Yes, exactly.

[buria-q.livejournal.com]

"Is it growth of self esteem, letting go of fetishizing your own culture (any wonder I identify emotionally with Kemetic African Revisionists?), or just deciding that trading one culture of hierarchies for another isn't worth it? I don't know."

My parents immigrated here, but that still puts a lot of what I've been thinking about lately into words. Damn, I'm totally favoriting this. Really, really good questions.

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

Damn, I'm totally favoriting this. Really, really good questions.

Yes indeed. I put this in my "memories".

It's got me thinking of how I have put black/brown people who weren't born and raised in the west (the U.S.A. or Europe) on a pedestal. And how crushed I was to find that ... my god, even in countries where ain't no white folks, the residue of white supremacy is still present and fucking things up (rampant colorism, divisions based on fighting for the scant resources white people left behind, etc.).

I'm all like: "NOOOOO! NOT THE MOTHERLAND, TOO!"

And I realized yes, I've been fetishsizing my own people (and other PoC). I've been praying for some kind of black/brown utopia I think ... and that just isn't reality. And it's been a hard pill to swallow (I blame us for internalizing white folk's b.s. and continuing to give them so much power over how we view ourselves, even in countries where the aren't a majority or aren't even really present. White racism is a miracle of affliction).

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

And you know, somehow this racism magically pops up of it's own accord, completely and totally unconnected to the massive White global media images, right?

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

any wonder I identify emotionally with Kemetic African Revisionists

do we need to make you some Hyksos-crushing garb?

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

You know, I had a whole dream I was born in ancient Khemet, as a chinese boy, which everyone thought was cursed until the priest ran up and said, "He's not evil- he's chinese!"

[bias-cut.livejournal.com]

Wow, thank you. This really helped crystallize a lot of things for me.

I'm 1st generation, and I also feel disconnected from my and my mother's culture and history. Part of this is because all of her family lives in Taiwan, but a big part of it is because she's incredibly invested in assimilation. There are many many examples of this, but I'll give one:

My dad did not allow my mom to speak to me and my sisters in Mandarin because he felt "left out." She allowed it and as a result, I don't have language as a connecting element.

I've also definitely had white folks throw their knowledge or supposed knowledge in my face as a weapon. During a particularly heated debate about appropriation, a white woman living in China said, "What does she know? I bet my Chinese is way better than hers!"

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I remember asking my dad to teach me Toisanese, and he said, "Why?!? You're never going to need it here!".

I feel that the diasporado experience of disconnection is this: your experience will not match your parents, and your kids experience will not match yours, which basically creates this brutal cultural generation gap on top of the status of being POC.

[bias-cut.livejournal.com]

your experience will not match your parents, and your kids experience will not match yours, which basically creates this brutal cultural generation gap on top of the status of being POC.

I think that this is really really true.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Maybe to be more accurate, instead of generation gap, we ought to call it an assimilation gap (desire to assimilate, perceived levels of assimilation, perceived benefits of doing so vs. not doing so, etc.)

[bias-cut.livejournal.com]

(Using my own little kid icon is totally apropos for this comment!)

Yes, I think you're right. I also think that in some families, the level of desire to assimilate is the same, although the outcomes probably look different for a number of reasons, generation differences being one of them.

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

In the black community it's called the "distance from the plantation theory":
http://shadowfae.livejournal.com/646851.html#cutid1

How many generations from the plantation are you?

I notice such a difference in attitude between myself and younger black folk who's family members are four generations or more out of the south. The mindset, the differences in outlook, what is gained, what is lost, is very similar to those PoC whose families immigrated (particularly if their families were a rural people).

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Huh. The level of immersion/assimilation and the levels of internalizing the bullshit makes sense.

The other issue specific to black folks in the modern generation, that seems important to me is the shift from recognizing media images of black folks being bullshit generated by white folks (during slavery, during segregation) to the illusion that it is black folks generating the same stereotypes to buy into (50 Cent, etc.)

That is, the former no one buys into as being something to emulate except as a survival tactic, whereas the latter hits kids into imagining that's what it really is worth role-modeling.

Which, also goes into the issue of "I ain't no role model" applies just fine when you're not the only knucklehead allowed media coverage, and not just painted as the representation for all your people, but also TO your people.

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

That is, the former no one buys into as being something to emulate except as a survival tactic, whereas the latter hits kids into imagining that's what it really is worth role-modeling.

*nods*

And it's tough because those white created stereotypes are so embedded into our culture ... and yet the younger kids don't seem to be as aware of this fact as us older folks are. They aren't being taught to look out for such-and-such, you know?

And yet all of those stereotypes have been repackaged and are being sold to them as if it's something to aspire too. As if they are the markers of "blackness". And so many of these kids are believing it because they have no one to show them the racist, historical roots of these images they want to immulate (especially in hip-hop).

It is scary to see how white society has flipped shit around to such an extreme that young black people not only accept those stereotypes that whites created for them - but view those stereotypes as "true" blackness". It is hideously brilliant in its evilness and makes me absolutely sick.

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

Put Steppin Fetchit in a big car, with enough gold and diamonds, "how could it be wrong?"

[oyceter]

OMG YES. Even now I have a huuuuge inferiority complex about my Chinese because people in Taiwan make fun of it a lot (and then turn around and give huge props to any white person who tries to speak it, which I never quite put together until you wrote this). And I never learned Cantonese because my dad didn't want my mom teaching it to us (he's Zhejiang-ese, she's Cantonese, though both by way of Taiwan), and so I never really talked to my grandparents on my mom's side because they mostly spoke Cantonese, we all had middling Mandarin, and they had pretty poor English. And now they've passed away, and there goes that chance forever.

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

During a particularly heated debate about appropriation, a white woman living in China said, "What does she know? I bet my Chinese is way better than hers!"

What the fuck?!

No she did NOT!

I can't even type coherently ... that is some absolute bullshit! >:(

[bias-cut.livejournal.com]

Any surprises that it happened in fatshionista? Over two years later, I *still* hold a grudge against her.

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

Learning Creole was a fight.

I was forbidden to speak it until I mastered French, and even then it was discouraged.

Now, I'm an interpreter.

I have relatives who've paid money to learn Creole, abroad, because the French we were spoon fed enabled us to talk with our kind of Haitians, but not most Haitians.

Eventually, my parents explained that they wanted us to grow up in such a way that we would never need Creole. They wanted us to be able to communicate with a particular subset of Haitians (and Europeans/white people) but no more than that.

And so, for a long time, Creole was heavy in my mouth-- or I spoke like a child or at least, sounded like one. And to be worse, I was raised in a country that doesn't even pretend to respect (or honor) its official language let alone any others.

I try not to study white folks that claim to know my culture(s) more than I do because even if they know mre, they still aren't. And yeah, so much of being Haitian (for me) is food I eat, dreams I half-understand, and books I read and Haitians to which I'm not related but get to interact with professionally.

That, is something I cultivate. I've put myself under the authority of Haitians professionally. That's been good-- though there are times that's been frustrating too. But I think in professional settings (outside of kinship ones) I'm working within a hierarchical framework that's got built in checks in balances, and is sort of a cushion against assimilation-suspicion and status-anxiety.

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

I try not to study white folks that claim to know my culture(s) more than I do because even if they know mre, they still aren't.

Yes. Amen.

And yeah, so much of being Haitian (for me) is food I eat, dreams I half-understand, and books I read and Haitians to which I'm not related but get to interact with professionally. That, is something I cultivate. I've put myself under the authority of Haitians professionally. That's been good-- though there are times that's been frustrating too. But I think in professional settings (outside of kinship ones) I'm working within a hierarchical framework that's got built in checks in balances, and is sort of a cushion against assimilation-suspicion and status-anxiety.

This is true for so many of us ... I look at how we take those pieces and connect with one another ... and yes, those of us who are part of a diaspora (our people were scattered) cultivate who we are with what we have left. And that reconnection is so important, no matter what we may have lost due to our family's choices or circumstances. It can be painful - but wonderful, too.

Commenting from the Motherland

[summercomfort]

I think it's better now than it used to be? If you look neutral enough, people would be less likely to assume you know a specific Asian culture. Likewise, I no longer assume that any given white person knows nothing about Chinese culture until I speak with them.

I guess, for me, being a 1.5 generation, I just switch between the two identities as appropriate. Travelling around China, I can generally get away with being "from out-of-town". Unless I sit down with people who *know* I'm from America, in which case I'm "American", and have to defend all things American. I can't explain to them the difference in the experience of being a minority in America? I guess in America, in some places I can get away with being "Americanized Chinese", but in some places, I'm the embodiment of all things Chinese.

But you know, from another perspective-- yes, the learning is hard. But once you have learned, the acceptance is deeper than any white person. Like, no matter how well a foreigner speaks Chinese, they're still treated as a novelty. Whereas if you speak well enough to appear "from out-of-town", you're accepted into the society. For example, last year, I was part of a group of Chinese-Americans who went to Shanghai for a "forum" thing, and the matching set of Chinese college students told me that they've participated with foreigner groups before, and that it was much easier for them to know and accept and share with us because they knew that we were Chinese. (I wanted to explain that we're no longer truly Chinese, but hey). I think language is definitely key. I ask stupid questions all the time. But because I'm meeting them halfway, people are generally happy to explain. (Such as the recent stuff about Chinese economics). There's also a growing definition here of "Chinese descendants abroad" (华侨). As in, once people know you're that, they're generally happy to test out their English and explain Chinese culture and forgive any faux pas.

Maybe you should visit the motherland? Because the racism here can work in your favor? (I wouldn't even consider it racism, but nationalism). Well, at least as a tourist. As a long-term thing, no.

Re: Commenting from the Motherland

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

I don't think Chinese racism will do me much better. I caught a lot growing up being half white. I wasn't white enough for some folks, not Chinese enough for others. (I have been mistaken for Japanese, Mexican, Filipino, Black (!) and Chaldean, so go figure).

Re: Commenting from the Motherland

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

Black (!)

No lie - when we first saw that icon of you (not the childhood one, but the more recent pic) I swear my husband and I both said you look like family, LOL!

Fa does to me, too, though. I don't know if I'm projecting because I love the two of you so much or if yall do have some negro-ness there, lol! But both of you look like family to me .. with some "good hur", LOLOL.

Re: Commenting from the Motherland

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

I could see that if you're talking about my black and white Myspace pic... (http://www.myspace.com/bankuei)

Re: Commenting from the Motherland

[shadowfae.livejournal.com]

Omg - yes! lol

And your pic here, too: http://bankuei.livejournal.com/profile

I remembered you mentioning that you were biracial - and VC and I assumed that your Dad was Chinese and your Mom was black, lol.